Category: philosophy/religion topics
Alright, I'm genuinely curious. Why is it that when I, as an atheist, say that I am an atheist, the first thing out of a religious person's mouth is, "oh, I'll pray for you"? WHY? As if your praying, which I don't believe in, is suddenly going to make the god, which I don't believe in, appear before me, which he hasn't done to anyone else since biblical times in any way that it as anyway provable, and suddenly my beliefs are going to change? Or, even worse, that you know so very much about my life and beliefs and principles, that you feel the dire need to change them to perfectly match your dogma, and this urge leads you to the belief, which you consider logical, that you should get down on your knees and murmur words to some guy who doesn't even have a name, in hopes that your dream will come true?
If a person tells me that they're a christian, I don't go, "Oh, well here, read some darwin", I don't go, "Oh really, well you shouldn't be because I'm not so you shouldn't be because it makes sense to me so I'll read some darwin for you in hopes that you'll completely change your basis of beliefs to fit my personal view on how they should be." And why don't I do this you may be wondering, I don't do it because that would be idiotic. I don't care what you worship, worship your left foot for all I care, just don't make me do it, and don't be so condecendingly presumptuous that you say you'll pray for us to "see the light' or any of your other sickeningly uplifting and completely overused phrases. I'm an atheist, I like being an atheist, I don't want you to pray for me to be anything else, so why do you do it?
Also, why do people keep offering to pray for my blindness in public places? Is this in the radical christian's handbook or something? Look, if there were a cure for blindness, I'm pretty sure I'll find it in a laboratory or hospital, not in walmart. I've had several people pray over me for my sight to return, and it still ain't done it, what makes you think your gonna put it over the top with just one more prayer?
Finally, why is it when you pray in public places, you put your hands on my head? That's weird, I don't like it, I don't even let my mother pet my head, why the hell are you doing it? I know the bible, it doesn't say, "thou shalt creepily touch heads", its not in there, I checked. So why, please, why do you put your hands on my head, like by putting your hand closer to my eyes you'll channel your prayer powers and heal them? Your not jesus, I don't even think Jesus could do it, he's dead, and I really don't want a dead guy touching my head.
So, those are my three questions. Why do you say, "I'll pray for you", why do you pray for me in public places when I don't know you, and why do you touch my head? Can anyone answer these questions, and where are my atheist friends who have gone through this, lets get some answers here.
wow I'd like to know the answers to these too.
and the thing is, is that being an atheist, prayer is not going to bring me around. only logical debate and evidence will do it.
As an agnostic, I don't think I want to be brought around to anything. Now, having never been Christian, all I can offer for answers are crackpot theories, standard operating procedure for the Godzilla-on-toast, so here goes.
I'll pray for you. This is code for "that does not compute" or "this represents something not in line with my ideas of how things should be. Let me consult the higher-ups and see if they'll resolve the situation." I observe that humans prefer idealism to realism, so there's a lot of focus on comparing how things should be with how things are and finding lots of lacking in how things are. This is probably also why it is impossible for Christians to accept atheists and other folks representing the different for what they truly are. It ain't how things oughta be.
Praying for magical transformations of the blind into the sighted in public. Probably such folk are insecure about their place in the afterlife and feel that doing somebody a perceived good deed will make them more favorable candidates for their paradise. They also want to impress upon assorted lookers-on that yes, they are truly good people, look how they're making the blind man better by wishing for their god to turn him into a sighted man by magic, oh, I'm sorry, that's miracles.
Hands on the head? No idea, error 404, mind boggles.
I really can't say much others haven't said here already, but thank you very much for bringing this up. I'm genuinely curious what others will have to say here.
wow. i've never had anyone touch my head while praying, but I have heard people praying intently, and their focus almost freaks me out in a way, mostly because these people honestly believe this heavenly being we can not physically sense in any way is truly listening to them, but also because if this god can really work miracles, and if he really loves us all like people say, why do we need prayer to, well, "bring us around"? If he's a god, can't he accomplish this without the aid of prayer? Like Cody, if I ever find physical evidence to suggest this god exists, I may change my tune, but until then, no amount of prayer or lecture is going to change the fact that I'm not buying this religion, or any religion for that matter. if anything, it would only push me even further away from it.
As for Jesus himself, yes, he existed, but he's dead now. If he were still alive today, I honestly wondered if all these misconceptions about him would have become as big as they have, and if this would upset him at all.
Its giving, or sharing a little love. The world could use more of it. Sure, you don't have to believe in that persons belief, but the fact is they do it to attempt to give you something. A little love. Personally I except it and say thank you. I understand they have given me something of themselves. What they receive back is a little joy, or pleasure. They have given you something. Except it, and you give them much pleasure. Is this so bad?
Gotta love good old one-upmanship. I've never thought it was anything more complicated than that. Ever notice how if you don't tell them that, they won't feel the need to pray for you? This has some exceptions of course, but I find usually they don't.
Yes, Forereel, as far as I'm concerned, it is. I understand being kind to people, and wanting them to be kind to me. But that doesn't mean they have the rite to intrude into my space, be it physical, emotional, or otherwise. Nor do I have the rite to intrude into someone else's space. that's not love, as you call it, that's just being annoying, and even if well intentioned, it's being really rude.
Which leads me to your questions, Cody. I can kind of answer the first one at least, though I will put this disclaimer: just because I can see the lines these people are thinking along does not mean I in any way agree with how they handle themselves. Not to mention that I've been the recipient of at least several of these things myself.
The first, why does someone pray for you when you tell them you're an atheist? That much I get, though most christians are lousy about how they handle this. It's because of the core teachings of Christianity: that Jesus christ is the way, the truth, and the life, and that there's no other way to God but through Him. Also that Christ is the only means to salvation: that there is a Heaven, and there is a Hell, and that those who have accepted Christ will be saved, and those who have not, will not. So, when a Christian hears you are an Atheist, that says to them that your soul is in eternal danger. That much I understand. However, I am not in favor of Christians being disrespectful, or talking down to people, or whatever else. I know you are an Atheist, and I have other friends who are. I disagree with you, and, as a Christian, I do worry a bit. But, everyone chooses his or her own path, and I know that. I can't and wouldn't want to change anyone's beliefs to suit my own. If someone is going to come to Christ, it has to be in their own time, their own way. If a Christian really wants someone else to come to know christ, ramming doctrine and cliche sayings down their throat is only going to be counterproductive. If someone wishes to talk to me about my faith, I will talk with them, but the worst thing a Christian can do is push it on others. That's what leads to questions like your first one, and gives Christians a bad name as being pushy, and so on.
Along those same lines though, I try to be respectful of other people's beliefs, but I also want them to be respectful of mine. I'm not going to flip out on someone who tells me they are an Atheist, for exampel. But nor will I tolerate them belittling me for my beliefs. I'm not going to try to shove my faith on to them, and I don't appreciate Atheists, when they find out I'm a Christian, automatically running me and/or my belief system into the ground. That respect has to go both ways.
Why do people who don't even know you insist on praying for you publicly? I have absolutely no idea. I've had that done to me a countless number of times, and can't help but feel the desire to strangle such people when they try. When that happens, I'm very firm on the fact that I will not allow it, and move on as quickly as possible.
And then we get into them wanting to touch you. I think I have the answer here too, though I can't stand how it is handled. My guess is, that in their screwed up logic, it's because the Bible does talk about laying hands on people in prayer. Don't ask me exact context right now, I don't have it. But I know that in many examples of Biblical healings, Christ, or his disciples, laid their hands on that person. But, if we're talking about the Bible here, it also clearly shows that healings can happen with no physical contact whatsoever. It just seems like those Christians who are rude and/or wacko enough to publicly pray for someone they've never met like that are also rude enough not to respect your personal physical space. But as far as touching us, they're no different than most of the rest of the sighted public who thinks it's okay to grab us to take us where they think we need to go.
So, it's full circle. They may mean well, but I really don't care, quite honestly. It's rude to be disrespectful to someone about their beliefs, touching strangers, and trying to pray with someone you don't know, or who has not asked for your prayers.
I hear what everyone here is saying, but its still their way of giving you a, well, little love. Yes I can understand all the points here, but if you think about it from my point of view, if you strongly believe in the Christian way and you meet someone that doesn't, if you pray for them, haven't you made sure they might have grace? Smile. If I'm in a hurry to make an appointment I have a tactful way of thanking that person and moving on quickly. If I'm not I just allow it. It doesn't take much time and it doesn't say I believe or not, and it doesn't change me. No harm done, but maybe you give them a bit of pleasure. A good thing, right? I know I'm barking up the tree, and always when this discussion comes up I take this side, but think about it.. Smile.
From that logic you could walk up to someone on the street and give them a deep tissue massage without their permission. Yeah you'll probably get arrested, get charged with assault, maybe rape, be put on the sex offenders list at the least, maybe go to prison, but at least you gave them a bit of pleasure.
The idea that you could force your religion on someone else, even in such a small way as praying for them, which yes is forcing your religion on them, is very conceited. That is why we have so many religious wars throughout history. When was the last time you read a headline saying that an atheist walked into a church and blew himself up? It doesn't happen, because we don't have the training to force our beliefs on someone else.
I can remember when I was young, I was raised a weslyn for those who don't know me, I was always taught that you should preach the word of god whenever you had a chance. if someone was having a problem at school, you should tell them about god, you should always be talking about god and it will make you a better person. So I tried it, I went around always talking about god and it never, ever made anyone feel better, it never did anything. I felt stupid, and the people I thought I was helping didn't change in the slightest.
If you want to care about other people, that's fine, its a good thing; we need more caring in the world. But to say that telling someone you'll pray for them is the manifestation of caring for them, to me, makes that caring seem very hollow. If you have someone who is hurting, emotionally or physically, they don't need mumbled words in a church or to any god, they need help.
If I were begging on a street, I'd want food, more than I'd want your prayers. So while I understand your stance on wanting to be kind and help people, I seriously question your methods. Do you honestly think that praying helps people at all?
Even if god does exist, and all that the bible says is completely true, doesn't the string of logic then state that god got them into that predicament in the first place? If god does have a plan, and did create everything on earth, it means he created nuclear bombs, cancer, aids, rape, starvation, and plans for them and all the other diseases and evil ways of dying painfully to happen, and plans who they will happen to, and chooses whether they will die from them or not.
Even if you take the other opinion of some religious leaders, and believe that god created what is good, and satan came along later and created what is bad, then you still have to wonder why god is sitting back and allowing them to happen. If god is all powerful, then he is more powerful than satan. If he is more powerful than satan, and he loves his children, then he should snap his fingers and heal them. Why does he sit back and watch his children fight and die in his name, like the child who kneels over the ant hill with the magnifying glass, watching the wriggling corpses of those he's burned. Or like the angry artist who breaks all of his creations.
Even taking into account the idea that you have to go to god, why does he sit back and let all these horrible things happen to his children. If I were a parent, and my house was on fire, I wouldn't test my child's love by seeing if they'd crawl to me or just let them burn, I'd do whatever I could to get them out. Why doesn't god do that, why does he sit back and let the flames lick at his helpless children?
It makes no sense, and I don't see how anyone can rationalize thinking that way.
SL don't worry about any prayers from me. I give everyone the freedom to believe...or not believe...anything they choose. I have a tremendous amount of respect for those who come right out and say "I'm an atheist. I don't believe in anything." I have accepted two organized religions in my entire life and grown cynical. The second, Islam, I have known Muslims who were genuinely decent people, but grew cynical based on a lot of bad behavior I have personally witnessed, so I'd have to seriously get over my cynicism and get some answers with which I'm satisfied before I made another attempt to practice this faith. There is a woman not far from you in Tampa who will come right out and say even tho she was raised in a Conservative Jewish household, she has always been an atheist at heart, and grew up, due to her "parents" giving her alcohol to help her sleep FROM INFANCY, alcoholic. She failed with AA due to the fact that it is a program that makes alcoholics accept God, and had the courage to found an organization of her own. It has a name like "Secular and Sober", not just for atheists but for anyone who wants to take responsibility for his/her own sobriety rather than making a "higher power" responsible.
thanks, Cody for posting this topic; although I'm curious to see what answers religious people come up with, I'm doubtful anything convincing will be said. still, it's refreshing to see others pondering this very thing.
Alicia, I completely disagree that atheists jump down religious people's throats; if anything, it's the other way around.
I don't think atheists "jump down religious people's throats" as much here, if at all, as they do in the Communist block. We have Cubans in Florida, and I remember hearing stories of them going to school to hear, "Ask God for pencils." The students were instructed to shut their eyes, and open 'em on the teacher's command. When they opened 'em, there were no pencils. They were then told, "Ask the soldiers of the revolution for pencils." When they were instructed to close their eyes, various adults walked around distributing pencils, then when they opened 'em, voila! They could see 'em for themselves.
Google a few years back partnered with China to do business there, even though that government blocks access to any sites Chinese citizens might use to learn about any faith. Members of the Falun Gong meditation sect have been known to disappear there without a trace.
I disagree with any forced religion or motivation to convert. For example a foreigner in a Pakistani jail might get some time shaved off their sentence if they convert to Islam. A Jewish acquaintance of mine, when a Christian passenger on an airplane asked found out about this part of his life, remarked, "Don't you want to be SAVED?"
I also disagree with forced secularism or atheism, for example Tunisian women are beaten and sodomized by police there aboard public buses for daring to dress in Tunisian Muslim garb. If belief or disbelief comes from the person him/herself, I'm happy with it if they are.
Unlike many religious people, most atheists aren't trying to win a debate, and we really don't care what you believe, as long as you're happy. all we want is for people who insist on shoving their beliefs down our throats to leave us alone and go about their business, just as we would do for them. I'll admit that a religious debate is one that nobody will ever truly win-not even atheists. Faith and logical debates are two completely different arguments altogether. Arguing that faith should win over logic is similar to arguing that a cat can accomplish more than a cell phone. it's pointless for either side to try to win.
I see what people are saying. I've had more than a few unsettling encounters with religious folks who used the I'll pray for you thing to "fix" my eyes. Then there was one guy who came up to me while I was sitting at a bus terminal waiting for a bus. He was passing out these religious papers of one kind or another. His more or less exact words to me were that if I got someone to read te paper to me when I got home, the lord would see to it that I got two new eyes when I got to Heaven. I'm not sure what I find more annoying, that or the other side of the coin, where people ask what sin my family could possibly have committed that god would punish them by making me blind.
To the original poster:
You may be on the wrong forums to get answers, at least to the part about the hands on head / minor assault situation.
To those who have said it's an 'invasion of space' and words like that, that is an underestimation.
If I put my hands on a strange woman's ass I can be convicted in some states of a minor sexual assault charge, were she to press one.
If you are detained (again, not just 'stopped') against your will and someone against your will is pressing their hands on your head / won't let go, that is more than just annoyance.
I've not been able to help but wonder how many pockets get picked or other items turn up missing when someone does this.
As to the debate question, the only one who wins the debate is the better debater. That is often the religious people in a public setting because they tend to use persons with a legal background, where the ability to best make your case with unfalsifiable arguments is a frequently-used skill.
An unfalsifiable argument is basically something you cannot demonstrate to be false: "The universe is complex," "Nobody can know everything," "I care," etc. Usually they are a diversion and not really a part of the question at hand.
Consider the kid who says "Everyone is doing it," or "Nobody got a good grade on that test," in answer to a parent's question. Granted, with kids we have answers for that, but debaters are simply experts at derailing an argument with these types of unfalsifiable claims.
Aren't the Old and New Testaments a bit different in regard to the blind? If anything the Old, at least the part I remember, is kind of 'live and let live', the passage read 'don't place obstacles in the path of the blind.' In the New doesn't Jesus in one passage restore sight to a blind man? I'm less familiar with the New. I don't remember anything about sin being used to punish a child. The way I interpret the OT passage about "the sin of the father being transmitted to the next generation" is bad behavior tend to pass from parent to child.
That is the interpretation I had heard, well that and the physical consequences are often left up to the child to deal with, say drug abuse during pregnancy and the like.
I never said I pray for anyone. I am not a Christian, nor am I a non believer. I am simply taking the other side and answering the question "why do you do it?" If you asked any devout religious person of any faith that is probably the answer you'll receive. "we, or I am sharing some love." As for why they put their hands on your head, that is where your eyes are, so. Now I am not as adversed to someone praying for me, simply because I understand they mean well, and I really don't mind. No, it doesn't change me in to what ever belief they are, but I try to see it as an act of kindness. As I said before, I am always on the other side of this debate. Smile.
I fail to understand how praying for someone who specifically says they're an atheist is showing love, but that's just me. As for praying for someone who is blind, I admit their intentions are probably as good as they can be given how little some people know about blindness, but nobody seems to even consider the fact that we might be happy that way. Therefore, if their god could restore us sight if someone prayed for it to happen, he would be taking away something we were happy with. I still fail to see how that's love.
Exactly. I remember when I was riefly in the BOyscouts when I was seven or eight or so and these kids telling me that one day I would wake up and have sight because God could do that. One kid even told me about a friend who was blind and then woke up the next day and suddenly wasn't. Or maybe it was just something he heard about. But I think even if he was really inclined to do something like this, God would make sure it was what we truly anted or that it would even be in our best interest. I firmly elieve God or whatever force you choose to believe in wouldn't give you anymore than you could handle, even though it might sometimes seem otherwise.
Let's say, hypothetically, that a god really does exist. if he has a plan in mind, as most people say, then those of us who are blind are that way for a reason. so, in that case, wouldn't restoring sight be going against his plan?
The only time I've heard about someone suddenly not being blind had to do with "hysterical blindness", or someone going blind because of mental breakdown, something that so traumatized them they lost vision for psychological reasons. I'm not sure I believe in "faith healing", and even Christian Science doesn't teach total dependence on God if there it's obvious prayer isn't healing the afflicted. For example, Christian Scientists have actually pleaded it was the faith that made them allow their child to die from something treatable, when the actual faith doesn't tell them to totally abandon conventional medicine if it means life or death.
Like I said earlier on this board, if god has a plan, it means he plans for rape, murder, kidnapping, drugs, cancer, aids, polio, the ebola virus, shark attacks, war, famine, the black plague, and all the other things we consider bad. Is that really a guy you want to worship, let alone pray for mercy from? I mean, your basically worshipping the guy who just destroyed your life, why.
True you might be happy as you are, but they don't understand that. They can see, so it is difficult to imagen being blind. So thats the deal. Next time it happens say "God has his plan and that is why I'm blind, thank you, but God knows best." Smile. People love to be heros, so while you don't understand it, try to be a bit more less forbidding. Remember, if they meet one blind person thats rude we all must be. Smile.
Sorry, I don't fold my principles because of some idiocy by sighted people. If they think I'm rude, then so be it, I don't fold for anyone. I am proud of being an atheist. If you can go around saying that you are a christian and proud of it, then I can go around saying I'm an atheist and being equally as proud.
I find it somewhat insulting that you think the best way to solve the problem is to act like I'm a christian, and have my principles compromised, rather than have the christians who are invading my personal space, wasting my time with their pointless ramblings, and making a sceen in the middle of a public area, should have to be taught a lesson about their own dogma, by someone who thinks that it is the cause of nearly all human ills. What gives you the right to be so condescending that you should think I should be the one to completely ignore my atheistic principles, when you and all the people who are so rude as to invade a person's space like that, are free to do as they like, simply because they are so vaunted and popular a religion>?
Thank you, cody. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's one thing to pray for someone who just lost a loved one, or is injured themselves; someone who has not revealed their religious beliefs, but praying for someone who has specifically said they're an atheist is *not* showing any love. It's basically a nicer way of saying "your beliefs are wrong, and I pray you'll realize it some day". if you want to pray for someone who hasn't asked for it in your church, or in private, then more power to you, but please don't make a public event out of it.
I didn't have the impression that the person praying for you knew you were atheist, however, people are going to have their opinions, and be a strong as you are about yours. I'm not trying to say you should change. I am just trying to answer the question to why. I just feel that we all much live in the world, and we as humans will come accross many things we don't like. This one is mild. What I think, and you'll jump on me for it, is that because you are atheist you feel uncomfortable with people testing your beliefs. No, I do say they should not hender you from passing, or doing anything, but I do say showing some patients for them is not going to kill you. That is my belief. No, I am not atheist and have a strong belief in God, but that is not what I'm basing my answer on. You asked why, and no matter how you feel, they feel they are sharing some love. Smile. You don't like it, say so and keep moving, but you can't take the fact away that they are simply trying to give something to you. Peace.
You're right. They probably are trying to test your beliefs. So...please tell me how that's love, again? I have a few friends who are Christian, and they show me they care about me by *not* praying, not the other way around. If you truly respect someone's beliefs, why do you have to pray in public? why can't you bring it up in church or bible study as a prayer request? Because...maybe, you're insecure about your own beliefs, and you think people will think better of you in public if you put your prayers out for public display? Sounds like you're showing yourself more love than the other person. if you're comfortable in your own skin, you don't need to wear a sign. In fact, I don't bring up my atheism unless it's asked of me, or in discussions such as this where that sort of thing is the very subject of the discussion.
thank you, Cody and Jess, for such well thought out posts.
Wayne, I couldn't disagree more. I'm beyond appalled that you went so far as to accuse atheists of being insecure simply because we won't stand for such bullshit as is being talked about here. in fact, I'll take it a step further and say people who share your views (most of the world) absolutely sicken me.
Well said, Jess. Gives thumbs up and opens a beer. It's one thing to say, "let them have it. They mean well." Rolls eyes. But quite another to, takes a long swig, cheapen yourself, shakes head in disgust, by tolerating it. I don't know too many atheists, shrugs, who confront christians and say, "I hope you will one day come to understand logic and stop making sacrifices for something less than tangible." Takes another gulp, belches. Why is that? Raises an eyebrow. If it were me, I'd have to say because it would start a pointless argument, and I'd kind of, gulp, gulp, burr'r'r'r'r'rr'r'r'r'rp, ah, look like a jackass. Oddly enough what I'm doing now. Shows ass. I don't know though, strokes beard as I think about it, maybe it's like sister dawn said, nods in her general direction and toasts her, it's probably a lot simpler than most folks think. Just a matter of good old respect. Finishes the beer, belches loudly, chucks the bottle, giving a two-fingered salute as I swagger out.
OMG! Have I told you how much I love you? Gets up and gives you a huge, wet, messy kiss. I love logic. I worship it. I will make people see it my way in public. After all, we must show some love to those who are logically challenged. puts hands on head of logically challenged and prays to the god of logic that they will one day see the light.
OMG, I love the last two posters!! thank you, thank you, thank you. sweet, logical people such as yourselves make my heart soar...unlike *clears throat* others that make me wanna puke my guts out.
I'm not insecure about my faith at all. I know exactly why I'm an atheist, and unlike christians, I can give more evidence to support my theory then saying, "God said so, so its true", or pointing to an out of date and much used book that is so incomplete and has been changed so many times that its completely impossible to know what it was actually trying to say, without an intimate knowledge of ancient greek or ancient hebrew, and both if you want to be truly thorough. I am proud of being an atheist, I don't hide in fear of the religious majority who are constantly trying to prove to me that I am wrong and I should become the fanatical worshipper of some cruel, cold and inhumane deity they called simply, "God".
The reason I do not force my beliefs on other people is that I proscribe to a higher plane of logic, reasoning and human interaction which indicates quite categorically that you should let other people live the life they choose. Unfortunately, as the religious radicals that seem to permiate our everyday lives have followed the conceited doctrine of their dogma, they do not have the ability to allow others to belief as they like, and must constantly force their belief systems on them.
It is this very ideal, the idea that you are right and anyone who does not agree with you is wrong, which has caused so many horrible occurrences throughout history. The spanish inquisition, the witch burnings of medieval europe and early colonial America, the massacres that have taken place in numerous countries, serbia leaps forcefully to mind, and even the german persecution of the 1930's and 1940's, were all caused because religions couldn't get along. Men of science and philosophy have been persecuted, arrested, imprisoned and executed by a religion that is so blinded by its so called faith that it can't even bare the idea of something standing up against it. Today we have battles in the court system, trying to get the ten commandments in courtrooms, and trying to have your heartless and cruel and unfeeling doctrine shoved down the throats of our children in school classrooms. Then when a muslim or jew or any member of a different religion comes along and wants their religion represented, you throw a hissy fit like little children and quote made up phrases that preachers filled your minds with like, "separation of church and state".
I despise the religious people who think that they are constantly right, and that anyone who thinks even slightly differently is completely wrong, even going so far as to persecute other sects of the same religion, how many times have you heard baptists call catholics sinners; completely forgetting the fact that your worshipping the exact same god. It is for this reason that you can think that someone praying in so public a manner, and in such an invading a way, is showing love. Perhaps they are showing the same love they are taught your god gives to his children, but if that is love, I don't want it.
Cody, can you be our god, please. hahaha. Just kidding, but seriously, it's people such as yourself that make me think logic still has at least somewhat of a place in this world.
If you want a god, worship either douglas adams, or richard dawkins.
I have to second Cody, and say I'm very secure in my atheism. people see it for themselves; I don't have to tell them. christians, on the other hand, bring god into everything. I choose to give myself the credit I not only deserve, but should take. especially when I'm making said thing happen myself.
Recommended reading: "Where God Went Wrong", "Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes", and finally, "Just Who is This God Person Anyway?"
Ah Adams, such a tragic story. If you really want some good writing about atheism though, read some of his essays from "the salmon of doubt', which was compiled after he died.
I have to admit the title alone has my attention. I'll check that out.
Yes I did say that maybe you Atheist weren’t strong in your beliefs, using that statement to get a reaction. Again, I am not Atheist, nor am I Christian, but have a strong belief in God. I am taking the other side to answer the question “why do you do it?” If you are Christian your teaching is to give the love of God to anyone you meet. Mark Chapter 16 Verse 15 and he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel. Christians also have a strong belief in the power of prayer to heal. I see many of you have books you read and stand by the things you have read in them, and have taken the sayings to heart. So have the Christians that pray for you. I think 99% of the world believing this way is an over statement, and there are many Christians that agree with you about public displays, if not your strong belief in Atheism. Now add to this the difficulty for a sighted person to understand blindness, and that you could actually be happy as you are, and that gives you some understanding or “why do you do it?” Think about it for a minute, if you put your hands on a blind persons head and prayed for them and bam! they could see, that be powerful, even for an Atheist. As strong as you are in your Atheist belief, and I can now see you are, they are just as strong in theirs. Seems to me just like you except foul language in your hearing range, or some other mild offense you don’t agree with, he not this? Instead of trying to walk through a wall why not use the door by saying “I’m Atheist” and keep on moving? So that is why my statement about being strong in your Atheist belief. Are they attacking your belief, or are you really seeking the answer to “why do you do it?”
Can I get a witness? Smile.
Didn't the bible also say something about the people who made a public spectical of themselves as they prayed, "I say to you, they have their reward.?" If a christian put a hand on my head and prayed and I was suddenly healed, would it be an act of love, or would the christian be a bit excited at getting the glory of healing me, even if it's through God. Maybe they are trying to sho some love, but I feel that they're also trying to establish a bit of superiority as well. "See? My God and my beliefs have just combined and done something that your beliefs haven't been able to do for you."
I repeat for the benefit of the underconfident, timid or otherwise impaired:
If you request they take their hands off your head, and even if they press them there uninvited, this easily could be unlawful restraint or assault. And yes, I think you should use it especially if they are bigger or more powerful than you.
There is no love in the invasion of a stranger's space or overpowering / detaining strangers.
First and foremost, that is what they are doing, either Christian or atheist or newage or whatever jibberish aside.
Well, what an interesting issue! As a Christian all I can do here is offer my deepest apology and ask your forgivenss for the foolishness of my fellow believers, we Christians have a bit of a problem in the lack of sensitivity a great many of our believers have.
Again, please accept my deepest apologies for the assault perpetrated upon you.
In the first post you asked a number of questions please allow me to try and answer them from my perspective.
1. "Why is it that when I, as an atheist, say that I am an atheist, the first thing out of a religious person's mouth is, "oh, I'll pray for you"?"
Ah that is easy, these people have a deep feeling of comfort from their beliefs and they are constantly surrounded by people of a similar belief structure, I suppose that coming across someone who has a different belief structure is a unsettling for them, they wish to express some love and they do it by offering to pray, they are probably also hoping for a bit of a miraculous divine intervention.
2. "why do people keep offering to pray for my blindness in public places?"
These people are perhaps not making the wisest choice and are being too self focused, they have not stopped to consider your feelings or the wider situation. They are acting as do simpletons.
I have begun studying for my Bachelor of Theology and have discovered just how little I understood about my religion (I hate that R word), I am now of the opinion that the vast number of Christians have a long way to go in gaining correct understanding of their religion.
3."why is it when you pray in public places, you put your hands on my head?"
Well it is in response the the New testament practice of "laying on of hands" but what is missing in the situation you describe is the deep respect you deserve to be given. They have not asked your permission they seem to have come up to you with their own agenda.
Again I'm sorry for these peoples actions, and how they have assaulted and insulted your dignity, their actions are not inline with what I know as Christianity.
Please be encouraged to tell them to (insert expletive) mind their own business.
I appreciate your open mindedness on the matter. I wish more people would think as you do. I admit I don't think I'll ever understand why people can believe in a god, but I will live and let live as long as others are willing to do the same. it was also big of you to do some research on the matter and admit there was a lot you didn't know about your own religion, and that there is a lot others still don't know about. If you think praying for an atheist will do any good, then by all means go for it, but what difference does it make if you bring it up in your prayer group, or in church? I know people who bring up all their prayer requests for the week at church. why must it be in public?
Wow, I appreciate that post a lot. It was very kind of you.
I have the utmost respect for someone who can take a belief they carried all their life, start to study it, and learn that it isn't exactly how they've thought it was. That shows a lot of self character on your part. Thank you for answering my questions.
How do Christians feel about prayer being defined as a sort of wish or hope. Is that trivializing the importance of it? So if you're atheist and a Christian says they'll pray for you, aren't they just expressing that they are wishing something for you via their appointed supernatural wish-granter? And if so, what are they wishing for? Are they wishing you weren't atheist, or wishing that some day you'll realize Christians are right and change your mind completely?
I am happy to see that a Christian person has posted to this board finally. Thank you. Maybe more of you will post? My views are acadimic, so.
to the dread pirate Roberts, thanks for the well thought out post. I certainly don't subscribe to any religion, but wholeheartedly appreciate your explanation. you're a breath of fresh air.
Ah yes. The god will solveall our problems philosophy. I recently got out of a very bad relationship as I said in another topic and I recently had a very close friend tell me that if I'd just asked God he'd have told me it wouldn't have been a good idea to get involved with the girl to begin with. But unless I'm much mistaken we were given free will for a reason.
LMFAO, Cody! The touching heads thing. Just lol. But seriously...this is a very good question, and also one annoys me. Though, I'll say I've not gotten very many offers of prayer, for which I am grateful, because I do not want them. I am very happy with Satan/Enki, and nothing anyone says is going to make me leve him. He has given me more than jesus ever could. Bottom line? People can pray until they're blue in the face, and it will do absolutely no good. Now, if they actually set their own minds to accomplishing their goals, well then, maybe they could get somewhere. But they do not. They kneel there and speak to a dead man on a cross, whom they expect to take away all their burdens. Which to me seems utterly foolish. Now, that being said, I myself pray. I often pray to Father Satan. But all that means, is talking to him. I'm not sitting there begging him to help me; he has way better things to do, most of the time, and besides I enjoy handling things on my own if I am able to. But I would never try and force my prayers on someone who did not want them. That is, in my opinion, a form of soul rape. And that is all I shall say on this matter.
ahhh, the classic discussion of dogmatisim versus free belief, logical higher thinking. From past experiences, I have had several times been aproached by complete strangers who not only touch my head, but one old woman even atempted to plant a kiss on my cheek. Needless to say I was rattled after that one.
As atheist go, logic is the key to life, I think that is pretty much accepted across the board. However, I was once involved in a similar discussion, and us people of ligic had come to one conclusion of organized religion. Believing in a deity brings forth peace, closure after a difficult loss as well as positive energy.
Although we may continue to argue that religion is only the idea of individuals believing in a god that may, or may not exist depending on who you ask is the primary avenue of discussion, but in these discussions, most often times than not, people fail to see the bennifit in organized religion. For example, on this topic, noone has brought up research which was conducted taking sensus of members of organized religion IE, Muslim, Christianity.
Organized religion more time than not is a major contributing facotr in cohesion amongst family members as well as in couples. For example, when was the last time you've seen members of your church divorced?
Furthermore, people who believe in a god are a lot more likely to give to charody. Not to say that atheists do not, but when ever you see people organizing a drive, they usually are apart of a church and a lot of the people involved are of the church.
This is from a prospective of a muslim. Although I believe in organized religion, I still look at life logically. It may come as a surprise to some who think all individuals who are part of organized religion do not have the capacity of logical thinking, but here I am.
I admit, religion doctorin may not solve everything, but sometimes believing in a deity as mentioned above really does keep a family together, and can bring people closer and help in forming relationships.
I would wholeheartedly agree with you, if studies hadn't shown that this were not true at all. IN fact, studies have shown that organized religion does absolutely nothing to help people act nicely towards each other, and actually shows signs of the opposite. the united states, which has the highest population in the western world of organized religion, also has the highest levels of teen pregnancy, suicide, violent crime, and other such activities which are strictly against all three of the monotheistic dogmas.
Furthermore, the act of prayer has been shown to have no medical effect, and in the largest test ever done, the ones who were prayed for, actually got worse, rather than getting better. The idea of telling someone that everything's going to be alright, actually turns out to put undo stress on them. Its great if you tell them that and everything does turn out right, but in a vast majority of cases involving life threatening diseases, things get worse, before they get better. This means you told them that everything would be fine, and your praying for them, and they get worse. Pretty stressful, if you think about it from their point of view.
As for divorce rate, I do not have the figures in front of me, but considering that over fifty percent of the marriages in america end in divorce, and more than fifty percent of the people in america are sworn to one religion or another, well, the math isn't too difficult really. Besides, even assuming that people who were married in a church stayed together longer, simply because the church told them they had to, its god's will, what of the marriages that aren't so good?
Your basically telling the woman who is repeatedly beaten on a daily basis by her drunken husband, who is forced into sexual acts she isn't comfortable with, who is totally and completely controlled, that she will have no escape route for the rest of her life. You may be comfortable with that, but I hope you are not in the position to know what your opinion of that situation is first hand. That is to say, I hope you have never been that woman. Its easy to say what should and shouldn't be done, when your not the one who has to live with the consequences.
Here here. I couldn't agree more. THe Catholic religion, to use an example, doesn't even acknowledge divorce.